chaos, if they punt, if it's a small deal, it's going to be a sign that we're not going to get the deficit reduction that we need. >> and that's the challenge for the president. because, yes, he does have all the leverage. we talked about that. he won the election of course. but this is a test of leadership, and the american public does not want to go over that cliff because, by the way, they want the tax cut for the middle class to remain in place. that's the ultimate cliff there and the bottom line is we don't want those to expire. gwen: as we approach it we begin to try to read the tea leaves. he brings the c.e.o.'s to the white house and they had the goldman sachsco guy saying i'm pretty optimistic we'll come up with a deal. and others think we'll good over the cliff. what do we read into that? >> there's a rule that denny has earth enunciated and people are outraged. it's a majority institution. the speaker is not going to put something on the floor that doesn't get a majority of the majority. if john byner puts something on the floor that raises taxes, they're going to explode. >> yo